Should Walmart be sued for letting its employee be trampled?

[Larry Flyntz]

So, I'm sure you've heard about the Walmart employee who got trampled to death last Friday.  I feel like someone needs to be punished - but who?  There's going to be an evidentiary problem figuring out who actually did the trampling, so none of the tramplers are going to be liable.  But, do you think Walmart should be able to be sued?  Hopefully someone else finds this sort of legal issue interesting.

[Shire Le Buff]

I really don't see how it's Walmart's responsibility to keep it's employees from being trampled to death.

As for the people in the mob, even if we were ever able to identify them it'd be hard to consider them entirely to blame. I haven't seen the footage myself so I may be talking out of my ass right now, but if they were in a mob they were probably being pushed along by the people behind them. After that, should every people who walked over him be charged the same? Or just the person who owned the foot that dealt the killing blow? How do you determine who that is?

I know we all want someone to blame but I kind of think it's just a fucked up tragedy.

[Larry Flyntz]

After that, should every people who walked over him be charged the same? Or just the person who owned the foot that dealt the killing blow? How do you determine who that is?

Exactly.  That's the problem with going after any of the individuals.  I think that Walmart could be liable for wrongful death, though.  Walmart has a duty to take reasonable care for the safety of its employees.  Based on the history of this sort of thing, the trampling was certainly foreseeable.  Therefore, if Walmart's lack of taking any sort of precaution was found unreasonable by a jury, Walmart would be liable.  It had a duty - it breached that duty - the damage was the direct result of that breach.  It sounds like a pretty strong case to me.

[Shire Le Buff]

What sort of precautions are there for being trampled by a mob? Not showing up? Unless they argued that Walmart should not have even been open for Black Friday because of it's potential for rowdy shoppers, I don't see where they could go with it.

Potentially they could argue that case I suppose, Walmart certainly doesn't HAVE to be open at 5:00 AM on a Friday.

[WWW.SETH.COM]

As I understand it there were law enforcement officers present. That sounds like a pretty reasonable precaution to me. I have no idea what they would have done to prevent it, but it still sounds pretty reasonable.

[Larry Flyntz]

Hmm, I hadn't heard about the officers present.  If that's the case, they could probably be sued.

[oatmeal fetish....]

Why do you want people to be sued so badly

[Shire Le Buff]

Hmm, I hadn't heard about the officers present.  If that's the case, they could probably be sued.

Are you hinting that the cops could be sued?

[Larry Flyntz]

Why do you want people to be sued so badly

I'm going to be a lawyer in 2.5 years.  Duh.

Actually, the more legitimate answer is that someone died, and it seems like his family isn't going to be able to recover any damages from anyone.  That kind of sucks.  And it is clear that something went horribly wrong here.  We need to make sure it doesn't happen again - the best way to do that is to establish some sort of precedent regarding what happens to people who let this crap happen.  If no one is punished, no one will take further precautions next time.

And I don't see why the cops couldn't be sued.  As is clear, I don't know all of the facts, but it seems that the police were on the scene to establish some sort of order.  It seems like they didn't do that reasonably.  I mean, if a battered wife calls the cops, and they show up on the scene and just watch the husband beat the wife, she can sue them.  They had a duty and they breached it.

Again, this will largely depend on the facts.  If they did reasonably try to establish order and the people just overpowered them, then they couldn't be held liable, but if they just stood by, hoping that their presence was enough, there might be a case there.

[oatmeal fetish....]

Why do you want people to be sued so badly

I'm going to be a lawyer in 2.5 years.  Duh.

Actually, the more legitimate answer is that someone died, and it seems like his family isn't going to be able to recover any damages from anyone.  That kind of sucks.  And it is clear that something went horribly wrong here.  We need to make sure it doesn't happen again - the best way to do that is to establish some sort of precedent regarding what happens to people who let this crap happen.  If no one is punished, no one will take further precautions next time.

And I don't see why the cops couldn't be sued.  As is clear, I don't know all of the facts, but it seems that the police were on the scene to establish some sort of order.  It seems like they didn't do that reasonably.  I mean, if a battered wife calls the cops, and they show up on the scene and just watch the husband beat the wife, she can sue them.  They had a duty and they breached it.

Again, this will largely depend on the facts.  If they did reasonably try to establish order and the people just overpowered them, then they couldn't be held liable, but if they just stood by, hoping that their presence was enough, there might be a case there.

As far as I know this has never happened before, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that WalMart should take precautions against it - after all, remember how shocking it was when the news first broke? It surprised us because it didn't seem like something that would ever happen. I wouldn't be surprised at all if WalMart hadn't taken precautions against it because it was the first time it has EVER happened and as such I don't blame them for it.

As for the cops, I find it hard to believe that they sat and watched a man die without at least trying to help. If they did then they are the worst cops in the universe. However (assuming they at least tried to help, which I think we agree they probably did), even though they failed at saving him they still shouldn't be held responsible. Cops who try their hardest fail all the time, and sometimes that results in people dying. Its the unfortunate nature of the business, and as a society we grant them some understanding in this regard. Also I think suing police officers for not doing their duty well enough is getting into dangerous territory.

And as far as how it sucks that someone died and his family won't be getting any money...too bad? Its horrible what happened and (I think) a very dark reflection of our culture, but senseless deaths like these do happen. Far too often in fact. Just because it is a tragedy for families doesn't mean they are entitled to giant sums of money.

[WWW.SETH.COM]

I saw a quote from one of the officers present at the time which said: "When the doors opened all hell broke loose." Now I wasn't there, but if the situation was actually hell-like, there may have just been a mass of rushing bodies and nobody realized what happened until the dust cleared and the corpse was on the floor. Also I keep hearing these people referred to specifically as "law-enforcement officers" which could mean anything from Secret Service to mall cops.

[Larry Flyntz]

I'm pretty sure this sort of thing has happened before.  I don't know if anyone has died, but I'm sure there have been injuries from tramplings in the past.  Even if no one had ever died, I think a death was certainly foreseeable.  Again, I don't know all the facts, but there must've been something to tip off the cops or the Walmart employees that these people standing outside weren't planning on walking in orderly. 

You're right, though, just because the cops failed doesn't necessarily suggest that they were negligent.  But, maybe they were.  I doubt they sat back and watched, but if they could've intervened in some way before the trampling and didn't, they may be liable.  I'm not saying it's a solid case, but I think there might be something there.

And I have to disagree - I definitely think people should sue cops when they do their jobs poorly.  We need to encourage cops to do their jobs well.  If their slip-ups aren't caught and punished, why would they ever improve?  This isn't just an anti-cop kick I'm on.  Anyone with an important duty to society should be sued when they don't do their job properly.  Doctors and lawyers get sued all the time (maybe too much) for their slip ups, but I think it makes the professions better.  You're more likely to seek perfection if you think you could be sued when you blow it.

[Shire Le Buff]

You're more likely to seek perfection if you think you could be sued when you blow it.

You're also more likely to do nothing at all.

I'm with Ethan. I feel for the guy's family and this whole situation makes me pretty sick to my stomach, but it is not really anyone's "fault". It's as if the guy was trampled by rhinos. No one really made a mistake (except maybe for the man standing in front of the mob) or pulled any sort of trigger.

Also, just as a side note, I was in line at Target at 5:00 am on Black Friday and it was extremely civil. People even apologized after bumping into me inside the store.

[Violent Unrest in Allentown]

Actually, the more legitimate answer is that someone died, and it seems like his family isn't going to be able to recover any damages from anyone.  That kind of sucks.  And it is clear that something went horribly wrong here.  We need to make sure it doesn't happen again - the best way to do that is to establish some sort of precedent regarding what happens to people who let this crap happen.  If no one is punished, no one will take further precautions next time.

I feel like this is important. When a family member dies, financial issues come into play. The family will miss the deceased, but they will also take a hit from what income he brought in, and they will also have to spend time and money dealing with his property and belongings.

Imagine your Dad dies by being trampled by an unwieldy Wal*Mart crowd and the corporation replies with "sorry for your loss, oh by the way you're going to be in debt for a while because you have to clean up all the loose ends left by your father's bills, property and belongings." Why should the family lose money over something that was out of their control?

Whether or not the officers were negligent, it's obvious that this Black Friday event was poorly managed and this particular Wal*Mart location needs to revise how it handles events with this many people.

[Shire Le Buff]

Why should the family lose money over something that was out of their control?

Then who should lose money over something that was out of anyone's control?

[Violent Unrest in Allentown]

Then who should lose money over something that was out of anyone's control?

The store's lack of control is unacceptable and puts them at fault. I'm not saying the family should get an exorbitant amount of money - although that is always possible - I'm saying the WalMart corporation should assist their employee's family in the pending financial crisis.

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1136158&format=text

A worker trampled to death when hundreds of customers stormed into a Wal-Mart for early-morning “Black Friday” bargains had no experience in crowd control and was placed at the entrance of the store because of his hulking size, police and a lawyer said yesterday.

It appears he was a WalMart employee with no crowd control experience and put into the compromising position by his superiors. How is WalMart not at fault?

[Larry Flyntz]

You're more likely to seek perfection if you think you could be sued when you blow it.

You're also more likely to do nothing at all.

I'm confused.  So, Walmart will simply stop having Black Friday sales?  Or the police are simply going to stop policing?  Neither of these will happen.  If either is sued, it will just lead to them doing their jobs more safely in the future.

And this situation was not "out of anyone's control."  This mob was made of people, not rhinos.  People can be controlled, and relatively easily, at that.

Also, Dan pointed out something important - the family shouldn't be entitled to giant sums of money (I never suggested that, so I don't know where anyone got that idea).  They should just be entitled to the money they lost by the cutting off of this income stream, which, since this guy worked at Wal-Mart, won't be an awful lot.  Although, since Wal-Mart is such a giant corporation, I wouldn't be surprised if a jury tacked on millions of dollars in punitive damages.

[Shire Le Buff]

I was just responding the the idea of suing people as a means to improve them. I wonder how much it really has helped the medical fields verses how much it has discouraged people going above and beyond what they need to.

This mob was made of people, not rhinos.  People can be controlled, and relatively easily, at that.

If that was true the big guy at the front of the store trying to control the mob would probably not have been killed.

And, as fucked up as it sounds, the family isn't "entitled" to any money they haven't worked for themselves. Unless the man had life insurance, they've got to make due.

[WWW.SETH.COM]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Walmart stepped in and picked up some funeral costs and gave the family some money, if only to try and stave off a lawsuit. For me, it really feels like it's the fault of the people who trampled this guy to death. As far as I no, no other Walmart employees died during black friday sales. Unless there was something wrong about the way this Walmart was laid out or built or something then the people actually running on top of this guy to save a few bucks on a flatscreen are in fact responsible for his gruesome death.

I hate to defend a hulking conservative corporation, but Walmart did take some precautions against unruly shoppers. Even if the guys there were stone cold police officers, they're at a store opening not a riot (well, not somewhere you would have expected a riot). Did none of the people who literally crushed a man beneath their heels stop before he died? If not, then yeah, they killed him and they are responsible. The thing is, unless they have some fancy security camera footage or something, it's going to be tough to figure out exactly who crushed this man to death.

[Shire Le Buff]

I've heard they do have footage and are trying to use it to identify the people.

I'd be interested to know what they bought.